as you can see Golem and I were a bit worn out on discussing this game and it made for one of the less fun WBEU's to write.
ah shit and I forgot to mention the
better go editStatistics: Posted by Yourself — Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:38 am
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It's kinda like the opposite of extends, but has the same effect that being able to play well at some point creates tolerance for mistakes. Where extends require you to play well *first* to gather extra life before you can slack off and take advantage of them (presumably when the game gets harder).
Statistics: Posted by Yourself — Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:29 am
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Agreed that it doesn't have much to do with how to play Shin Nekketsu Kouha in specific, but it was interesting to read some well-articulated stuff about what one guy thinks beat-em-ups became. His combat analysis is worthwhile regardless. I also think some principles might be abstracted and applied to our game here, but I'm not super hopeful on that front.
Statistics: Posted by Golem — Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:34 am
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I don't super agree with everything he says about "mash flow". For instance, he says of super-traditional style flow "it is very important to note there was no interplay between the two basic flows, it just seemed like it because you could start one combo in the middle of the other." While the sum damage output and time taken for kick-kick-punch and punch-kick-kick may be the same, a combo's interplay is not expressly determined by sum qualities. In Double Dragon it is usually *better* to attack an enemy using punch-kick-kick because the punch is a quicker lead and the kicks leave the enemy stunned and ready for a grab. Does that not qualify as a combo?
Also, why do you say SNK doesn't have mash flow? His definition of mash flow is as a category. It clearly has Super-Traditional mash flow. Did you read that differently than I did?
To continue being a gigantic dick, his history isn't great. There are a lot more than two games that have implemented a super-flexible mash flow (though at least he did qualify with a "that I know of"). Sengoku 3, Lament of Innocence and No More Heroes just off the top of my head.
All of this writing is about combos, which are only one approach to (and one aspect of) combat. Not that there's anything indicating to the contrary. Just that it's an approach that doesn't work at all for a game like SNK.
Statistics: Posted by Yourself — Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:34 am
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History of beat em ups. He gives a basic classification of each era, but nothing concrete to go on from what I can tell. Shouty noted that TMNT was missing, and Fox asked why Dynasty Warriors wasn't on here if Devil May Cry was.
http://aztez.com/blog/2012/08/23/the-hi ... at-em-ups/
Here's something Shin Nekketsu Kouha doesn't have: mash flow. That is to say, pressing buttons in sequence to string along combos.
http://aztez.com/blog/2011/01/29/the-mash-flow/
Evaluating beat 'em ups. This has more to do with latter-day games in the ilk of Devil May Cry.
http://aztez.com/blog/2010/12/03/evalua ... at-em-ups/
Beat 'em up sheet music. I haven't read this yet, but it looks promising.
http://aztez.com/blog/2011/03/19/beat-e ... eet-music/
Skill divisions of players. Scrappers are button mashers, warriors learn basic means of expression, masters own an engine. I am definitely a scrapper (maybe a warrior if we're talking Sonic Heroes).
http://aztez.com/blog/2012/07/31/the-sk ... p-players/
Combat accessibility fork. The role of cancels in making a game accessible. Shin Nekketsu Kouha really only has one cancel--from a guard into a guard attack--right?
http://aztez.com/blog/2012/12/13/a-comb ... lity-fork/
Links to great articles about combat. I haven't read any of these so far.
http://aztez.com/blog/2012/12/26/links- ... re-combat/
Mechanic analysis in video form. Haven't watched these yet.
http://aztez.com/blog/2012/12/26/mechan ... ideo-form/
Statistics: Posted by Golem — Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:14 am
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If you had to design some scoring system for Shin Nekketsu Kouha, what would you value? How would it work? Nothing about health, attack power, stun time, etc. would change--this would just be an abstract SCORE stapled onto the HUD.
For instance, I would try to devise a scoring system that valued smart blocking and variety of moves. So, I'd start with these two ideas:
-If you block an attack, you earn bonus points. If you spam the block button multiple times before actually blocking an attack, you earn fewer bonus points. On the flip side, if you block an attack within half a second of your previous attack, you earn bonus points. This is because it's harder to chain into a block and shows a greater mastery of combat flow.
-Guard moves stop giving points after 5 uses in the same screen. This would devalue overusing any one particular move. I don't think you could do the same for normal moves--you need your punches and kicks too much. Your normal punches and kicks would have a static point value, and that point value might be 0.
Statistics: Posted by Golem — Tue Mar 25, 2014 3:41 am
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Think from a speed-runner's perspective. Someone who has minimized the time it takes to get through every boss fight. Would you say that they have any lesser grasp on the strategy because they might take damage in some way that speeds up the fight? The end goal is only to win the game. So why couldn't a developer define a perfect run that way? Why can't a perfect boss run be built around something more than dodge, attack, dodge, attack?
I think there are all kinds of perfect runs (in SNK and other games) and they might not have an exceptionally clean or singular-per-game definition. When the goal of the game is simply "defeat the enemy and survive", a player can find their own definition. It may be to beat it as fast as possible or without getting hit, or to beat it while showing off every technique or without blocking. Maybe it's as grey as beating it while retaining 75% of the life bar. I'm not saying anything can be anything as long as you can win - that's the exact opposite of Igarashi's point - but that what the developer should be focusing on is that there is something that the player can maximize so as to improve their play. It's kind of like what I said in the podcast about the player not necessarily needing to master the game to get the most out of it, but needing to be able to see the path to mastery. You get better at something to the point where it stops being fun, and that's the perfect run. If the developer has an idea of that perfect run, a way to get the absolute most out of the fight, and has put in ways to strive toward it, that's good enough. That to me is the generalized aspect of Igarashi's quote when removed from the setting of no-miss runs.
Scoring / rating / achievements are obviously the simplest way to get players engaged with this mentality - unsurprisingly, a couple people mentioned in the podcast that they've only taken on challenges when offered these carrots. We scoff at these tools sometimes, but if they help people to get more out of the game, they have their use. If the developer has a particularly obscure notion of what makes an interesting "perfect run", that's something they can nudge the player toward with a trophy or a bonus challenge.
Statistics: Posted by Yourself — Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:02 am
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And for some of the fights I just did the jumpkick, walked away and then jumped back with the jumpkick when they got up again, and just kept doing this until they were gone. Seemed to work from time to time...
Also, for some reason I found Riki and Kyouko easier to use than the others? Somehow I just seem to land more attacks and get hit less when playing as them.
Statistics: Posted by Zanreo — Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:12 am
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